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- » [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History
#1 2007-08-30 09:52:33
- leedsjoe
- Member

- From: Leeds, UK
- Registered: 2006-11-29
- Posts: 466
[1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History
In the panorama editor there are two functions that are called 'level', in some way: 1) auto levelling, of the image; 2) adjusting the level of colours.
These are labelled in two ways/places: 1) the icons are labelled; 2) an entry occurs in the 'History' tool.
The relationship is as follows:
Function Icon History
Levelling of image 'Auto Level' 'Autoleveling'
Colour levels 'Levels' 'Level'
What caused me to raise this query is the last entry, ie 'Level' in History. But I haven't done an 'Autolevel', I thought.
As a minimum, could this entry become 'Levels,' like the icon.
Have others thoughts about how these two functions could be more clearly differentiated, in their descriptions?
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#2 2007-08-30 11:49:38
- GURL
- Member
- From: Grenoble
- Registered: 2005-12-06
- Posts: 2944
Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History
In French language the relationship is as follows:
Function Icon History
Levelling of image 'Niveau automatique' 'Niveau automatique'
Colour levels 'Niveaux' 'Niveaux'
... so that automatique (singular) is used to denote "removing ground slant + moving the horizon where it should be" and the plural is used to denote "changing chrominance and/or luminance values".
English word level, French word niveau (from Latin word libellus) refer to a quantity or to a flat ground depending on the context.
For English I would sugest either:
Function Icon History
Levelling of image 'Automatic levelling' 'Automatic levelling'
Colour levels 'Color levels' 'Color levels'
... or:
Function Icon History
Levelling of image 'Automatic horizon' 'Automatic horizon'
Colour levels 'Levels' 'Levels'
Ambiguities in tool names make documentation both more difficult to write and more useful to read !
color / colour (BTW, in most occasions, this word is now used to denote brightness/gamma changes, not hue/saturation changes)
leveling / levelling
Georges
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#3 2007-08-31 10:08:01
- Troberg
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- Registered: 2007-03-28
- Posts: 21
Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History
Function Icon History
Levelling of image 'Automatic horizon' 'Automatic horizon'
Colour levels 'Levels' 'Levels'
I think this is the best alternative. It clearly keeps them apart. It might be good to clarify it even more with:
Function Icon History
Levelling of image 'Automatic horizon' 'Automatic horizon'
Colour levels 'Colour levels' ' Colour levels'
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#4 2007-08-31 12:59:11
- [bo]
- community overseer

- From: Bulgaria
- Registered: 2006-05-05
- Posts: 1673
Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History
Automatic horizon sounds dumb... It does not create a horizon automatically, it just tries to straighten the panorama, assuming where the center point of the image might me. Which gives mixed results with handheld panos, etc.
As I see it, the 'Automatic horizon' is actually a single-click "Straighten panorama" tool. If it does not help - set center point manually. And use Verical lines if needed. So maybe those three must be in a toolbar labeled "Panorama geometry", I dunno...
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#5 2007-08-31 14:26:42
- GURL
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- From: Grenoble
- Registered: 2005-12-06
- Posts: 2944
Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History
It looks like peoples don't agree about what is or is not the horizon (the skyline or not the skyline, the "camera horizon" where the points which are the same height than the lens are located in the subject, etc.)
Since John Houghton (who wrote the tutorial LEVELLING A PANORAMA IMAGE WITH PTGUI http://homepage.ntlworld.com/j.houghton/levtut.htm said "there is no horizon in your image" while the French sentence "l'emplacement de l'horizon est correct" was true, I'm very cautious about that word! This is the reason I made two proposals.
Besides that, the concerned tools are changing "the pitch and the roll" of the stitched image at the same time. When the pano is leaning toward the right or the left (roll) this is corrected. When the slope looks wrong and an upward or downward change (pitch) is needed this is corrected. Saying this is related to the location of the 3 kinds of horizons defined there http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon is not dumb! ![]()
Georges
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#6 2007-08-31 15:18:23
- [bo]
- community overseer

- From: Bulgaria
- Registered: 2006-05-05
- Posts: 1673
Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History
There might be a thousand kinds of horizons, but people generally don't consider anything but the skyline a horizon. I'm not arguing the definition is dumb, but the use in this context. If it was up to me, I'd rather have a "Straighten panorama" button or even your "Automatic leveling" instead of something with a "horizon" in in...
What's more disturbing is that "auto something" implies a single-click-and-you're-done approach, while, in practice, clicking the auto level button rarely is enough. It is just the first step in a sequence of actions you have to make to achieve a relatively straight pano. In that context, the button is more of a "Try to level the panorama"...
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#7 2007-08-31 20:28:46
- GURL
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- From: Grenoble
- Registered: 2005-12-06
- Posts: 2944
Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History
[bo] wrote:
In that context, the button is more of a "Try to level the panorama"...
Alexandre explaining when the "leveling button" works and when it can't would probably help.
From experience:
1) my panohead bubble being centered is enough for a lower than one degree error.
2) when using a tripod and no panohead my main care was to set the legs so that the central column was really vertical (I found an easy way for that but don't know how to describes it in a few words.)
3) when shooting hand held it depends of luck (but some training helps.)
Using the Verticals tool is easy when there are several large and well spaced vertical lines in the subject. Using a larger than 800x400 preview quality often helps. For some landscapes this Verticals tool is completly helpless. Besides the well known seaside skyline, using horizontal lines is to be avoided
: the word horizontal is very ambiguous - the horizontal lines to be used are those which are parallel to the camera sensor when shooting! ![]()
Using the Center point is easy when you can place it on something being at the exact same height the camera was (this is on the skyline only when at the seaside.)
Georges
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#8 2007-09-01 19:41:33
- leedsjoe
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- From: Leeds, UK
- Registered: 2006-11-29
- Posts: 466
Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History
GURL wrote:
(BTW, in most occasions, this word is now used to denote brightness/gamma changes, not hue/saturation changes)
As background, I gather that 'levels' would rather refer to brightness and contrast while one would speak of 'balance' in colours (hue & saturation). Source, btw, my daughter who works for 'EA Games'
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#9 2007-09-04 10:22:17
- AlexandreJ
- Absolute beginner

- From: Challes les eaux, France
- Registered: 2005-11-14
- Posts: 5502
- Website
Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History
In english :
Function Icon History
Levelling of image 'Automatic horizon' 'Automatic horizon'
Colour levels 'Colour levels' 'Colour levels'
In french :
Function Icon History
Levelling of image 'Horizon automatique' 'Horizon automatique'
Colour levels 'Niveaux' 'Niveaux'
Okay for everyone ?
Even if horizon seems dumb to use, I would prefer to use it against levelling because it's more clear in both language. Now, I must admit, I'm not a linguist.
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#10 2007-09-04 11:31:44
- leedsjoe
- Member

- From: Leeds, UK
- Registered: 2006-11-29
- Posts: 466
Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History
Alexandre: a decent compromise. OK, with me.
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#11 2007-09-04 19:06:23
- GURL
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- From: Grenoble
- Registered: 2005-12-06
- Posts: 2944
Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History
I suspect this one being the other one !
Georges
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#12 2007-09-04 19:06:28
- AlexandreJ
- Absolute beginner

- From: Challes les eaux, France
- Registered: 2005-11-14
- Posts: 5502
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Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History
Yes. It will be an "auto colour level after update"
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#13 2007-09-19 10:43:54
- AlexandreJ
- Absolute beginner

- From: Challes les eaux, France
- Registered: 2005-11-14
- Posts: 5502
- Website
Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History
Done
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