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#1 2007-08-30 09:52:33

leedsjoe
Member
From: Leeds, UK
Registered: 2006-11-29
Posts: 466

[1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History

In the panorama editor there are two functions that are called 'level', in some way: 1) auto levelling, of the image; 2) adjusting the level of colours.

These are labelled in two ways/places: 1) the icons are labelled; 2) an entry occurs in the 'History' tool.

The relationship is as follows:

Function                 Icon               History

Levelling of image   'Auto Level'    'Autoleveling'
Colour levels          'Levels'          'Level'


What caused me to raise this query is the last entry, ie 'Level' in History. But I haven't done an 'Autolevel', I thought.

As a minimum, could this entry become 'Levels,' like the icon.

Have others thoughts about how these two functions could be more clearly differentiated, in their descriptions?

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#2 2007-08-30 11:49:38

GURL
Member
From: Grenoble
Registered: 2005-12-06
Posts: 2944

Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History

In French language the relationship is as follows:

Function                 Icon                           History
Levelling of image    'Niveau automatique'    'Niveau automatique'
Colour levels           'Niveaux'                     'Niveaux'

... so that automatique (singular) is used to denote "removing ground slant + moving the horizon where it should be" and the plural is used to denote "changing chrominance and/or luminance values".

English word level, French word niveau (from Latin word libellus)  refer to a quantity or to a flat ground depending on the context.

For English I would sugest either:

Function                 Icon                           History
Levelling of image    'Automatic levelling'       'Automatic levelling'
Colour levels           'Color levels'                 'Color levels'

... or:

Function                 Icon                           History
Levelling of image    'Automatic horizon'       'Automatic horizon'
Colour levels           'Levels'                        'Levels'

lol Ambiguities in tool names make documentation both more difficult to write and more useful to read !
roll color / colour (BTW, in most occasions, this word is now used to denote brightness/gamma changes, not hue/saturation changes)
roll leveling / levelling


Georges

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#3 2007-08-31 10:08:01

Troberg
Member
Registered: 2007-03-28
Posts: 21

Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History

Function                 Icon                           History
Levelling of image    'Automatic horizon'       'Automatic horizon'
Colour levels           'Levels'                        'Levels'

I think this is the best alternative. It clearly keeps them apart. It might be good to clarify it even more with:

Function                 Icon                           History
Levelling of image    'Automatic horizon'       'Automatic horizon'
Colour levels           'Colour levels'                        ' Colour levels'

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#4 2007-08-31 12:59:11

[bo]
community overseer
From: Bulgaria
Registered: 2006-05-05
Posts: 1673

Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History

Automatic horizon sounds dumb... It does not create a horizon automatically, it just tries to straighten the panorama, assuming where the center point of the image might me. Which gives mixed results with handheld panos, etc.

As I see it, the 'Automatic horizon' is actually a single-click "Straighten panorama" tool. If it does not help - set center point manually. And use Verical lines if needed. So maybe those three must be in a toolbar labeled "Panorama geometry", I dunno...


Some of my panoramas, posted in the Autopano Pro flickr group.

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#5 2007-08-31 14:26:42

GURL
Member
From: Grenoble
Registered: 2005-12-06
Posts: 2944

Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History

It looks like peoples don't agree about what is or is not the horizon (the skyline or not the skyline, the "camera horizon" where the points which are the same height  than the lens are located in the subject, etc.)

Since John Houghton (who wrote the tutorial LEVELLING A PANORAMA IMAGE WITH PTGUI http://homepage.ntlworld.com/j.houghton/levtut.htm said "there is no horizon in your image" while the French sentence "l'emplacement de l'horizon est correct" was true, I'm very cautious about that word! This is the reason I made two proposals.

Besides that, the concerned tools are changing "the pitch and the roll" of the stitched image at the same time. When the pano is leaning toward the right or the left (roll) this is corrected.  When the slope looks wrong and an upward or downward change (pitch) is needed this is corrected. Saying this is related to the location of the 3 kinds of horizons defined there http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon is not dumb! yikes


Georges

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#6 2007-08-31 15:18:23

[bo]
community overseer
From: Bulgaria
Registered: 2006-05-05
Posts: 1673

Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History

There might be a thousand kinds of horizons, but people generally don't consider anything but the skyline a horizon. I'm not arguing the definition is dumb, but the use in this context. If it was up to me, I'd rather have a "Straighten panorama" button or even your "Automatic leveling" instead of something with a "horizon" in in...

What's more disturbing is that "auto something" implies a single-click-and-you're-done approach, while, in practice, clicking the auto level button rarely is enough. It is just the first step in a sequence of actions you have to make to achieve a relatively straight pano. In that context, the button is more of a "Try to level the panorama"...


Some of my panoramas, posted in the Autopano Pro flickr group.

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#7 2007-08-31 20:28:46

GURL
Member
From: Grenoble
Registered: 2005-12-06
Posts: 2944

Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History

[bo] wrote:

In that context, the button is more of a "Try to level the panorama"...

Alexandre explaining when the "leveling button" works and when it can't would probably help.

From experience:
1) my panohead bubble being centered is enough for a lower than one degree error.
2) when using a tripod and no panohead my main care was to set the legs so that the central column was really vertical (I found an easy way for that but don't know how to describes it in a few words.)
3) when shooting hand held it depends of luck (but some training helps.)

Using the Verticals tool is easy when there are several large and well spaced vertical lines in the subject.  Using a larger than 800x400 preview quality often helps.  For some landscapes this Verticals tool is completly helpless.  Besides the well known seaside skyline, using horizontal lines is to be avoided roll: the word horizontal is very ambiguous - the horizontal lines to be used are those which are parallel to the camera sensor when shooting! roll

Using the Center point is easy when you can place it on something being at the exact same height the camera was (this is on the skyline only when at the seaside.)


Georges

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#8 2007-09-01 19:41:33

leedsjoe
Member
From: Leeds, UK
Registered: 2006-11-29
Posts: 466

Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History

GURL wrote:

(BTW, in most occasions, this word is now used to denote brightness/gamma changes, not hue/saturation changes)

As background, I gather that 'levels' would rather refer to brightness and contrast while one would speak of 'balance' in colours (hue & saturation). Source, btw, my daughter who works for 'EA Games'

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#9 2007-09-04 10:22:17

AlexandreJ
Absolute beginner
From: Challes les eaux, France
Registered: 2005-11-14
Posts: 5502
Website

Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History

In english :

Function                 Icon                           History
Levelling of image    'Automatic horizon'       'Automatic horizon'
Colour levels           'Colour levels'                'Colour levels'

In french :

Function                 Icon                           History
Levelling of image    'Horizon automatique'    'Horizon automatique'
Colour levels           'Niveaux'                     'Niveaux'

Okay for everyone ?

Even if horizon seems dumb to use, I would prefer to use it against levelling because it's more clear in both language. Now, I must admit, I'm not a linguist.

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#10 2007-09-04 11:31:44

leedsjoe
Member
From: Leeds, UK
Registered: 2006-11-29
Posts: 466

Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History

Alexandre: a decent compromise. OK, with me.

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#11 2007-09-04 19:06:23

GURL
Member
From: Grenoble
Registered: 2005-12-06
Posts: 2944

Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History

I suspect this one being the other one !


Uploaded Images


Georges

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#12 2007-09-04 19:06:28

AlexandreJ
Absolute beginner
From: Challes les eaux, France
Registered: 2005-11-14
Posts: 5502
Website

Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History

Yes. It will be an "auto colour level after update"

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#13 2007-09-19 10:43:54

AlexandreJ
Absolute beginner
From: Challes les eaux, France
Registered: 2005-11-14
Posts: 5502
Website

Re: [1.4 A3 Win] Confusion about 'level' in Panorama Editor History

Done

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